Pursuant to Regulation 30 of the SEBI (Listing Obligations and Disclosure Requirements) Regulations, 2015, please find enclosed the transcript of the Q2FY23 Results Conference Call held on Tuesday, 1s...
Date: 8th November, 2022
The Manager, Listing Department, National Stock Exchange of India Limited Exchange Plaza, C-1, Block G, Bandra – Kurla Complex, Bandra (East), Mumbai – 400 051
The Listing Department BSE Limited Phiroze Jeejeebhoy Towers, Dalal Street, Mumbai – 400 001
Symbol: SAREGAMA
Scrip Code: 532163
Sub: Q2FY23 Earnings Conference Call - Transcript
Dear Sir/Madam,
Pursuant to Regulation 30 of the SEBI (Listing Obligations and Disclosure Requirements) Regulations, 2015, please find enclosed the transcript of the Q2FY23 Results Conference Call held on Tuesday, 1st November, 2022 at 16:00 hrs (IST) for the quarter and half year ended 30th September, 2022.
The above information is also available on the website of the Company.
Kindly take the same on record.
Thanking You,
Yours Faithfully,
For SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED
Priyanka Motwani Company Secretary and Compliance Officer Membership No: A58041
SAREGAMA India Limited, 33, Jessore Road, Dum Dum, Kolkata - 700 028, India. Tel: +91 33 2551 2984, Fax: +91 33 2550 0817, Web: www.saregama.com
CIN: L22213W81946PLC014346 Email ID: saregama@rpsg.in
“Saregama India Limited Q2 FY2023 Earnings Conference Call”
November 01, 2022
ANALYST:
MR. BHUPENDRA TIWARY – ICICI SECURITIES
MANAGEMENT: MR. VIKRAM MEHRA – MANAGING DIRECTOR –
SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED MR. PANKAJ CHATURVEDI – CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER – SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED MR. B L CHANDAK – EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR – SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED MR. SAKET SAH - HEAD INVESTOR RELATIONS – SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED MR. PANKAJ KEDIA – VICE PRESIDENT, INVESTOR RELATIONS – SAREGAMA INDIA LIMITED
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Saregama India Limited November 01, 2022
Moderator:
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Saregama India Limited Q2 FY2023
Earnings Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities. As a reminder, all participant lines
will be in the listen-only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions
after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call
please signal the operator by pressing “*” then “0” on your touchtone phone. Please note
that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Bhupendra
Tiwary from ICICI Securities. Thank you and over to you Sir.
Bhupendra Tiwary:
Thank you Sema. On behalf of ICICI Securities, we welcome you to Q2 FY2023 results
conference call of Saregama India Limited. From the management, we have Mr. Vikram
Mehra who is the MD, Mr. Pankaj Chaturvedi who is the CFO and Mr. B L Chandak,
Executive Director, Mr Saket Sah, Head, Investor Relations, and Mr. Pankaj Kedia, Vice
President, Investor Relations. We will start with the opening comments by Vikram post
which we will take the Q&A so over to you Vikram.
Vikram Mehra:
Thank you and good evening, everyone. Q2 of the financial year saw an operating revenue
of Rs.189 Crores and a PAT of Rs.46 Crores which basically means a 30% year-on-year
increase in income and a 36% year-on-year increase in PAT. If I look at the data on a half-
yearly basis, then both revenue and PAT have grown by 43% on a year-on-year basis.
Remember this is in continuation with last year’s growth number of 31% in operating
revenue and 35% in PAT. This is something I have been saying quarter after quarter and
year after year that the growth story that we are on is there to stay. And there are reasons for
it. In our country the growth in digital consumption, is happening both on account of new
customers coming in and consuming audio & video for the 1st time, and then the existing
customers post COVID consuming that much more of content on daily basis. These days it
is almost impossible to find a person, irrespective of socio-economic strata, who is free
even for 15 minutes, not picking up his phone and watching or hearing something. That is
the reason why the digital consumption is going up in a substantial manner. With that in
mind, I think Saregama’s growth story is going to remain pretty stable in the medium to
long-term. Growth in short to medium term is a given. The next 15 to 20 years are going to
be India’s growth story and digital is what is going to be driving it. And we sit at the centre
of it, being a core IP company. Technologies may come, technologies may go. Platforms
may come, platforms may go, but the company that holds large chunk of valuable IP will
always be pretty profitable both from the topline and the bottom-line perspective.
The other advantage that we as a company have now is that we are not overdependent on
any one revenue stream. There was a time about eight to nine years ago where our entire
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revenue used to be dependent on just music and that also from telecom. We have come a
long way from there. Now we are making good amount of money not only from music
streaming apps, but also video streaming apps, short format apps, television channels, films,
TV series, digital series and live events. So even if there is a downturn happening in any
one area, the other pillars still hold us pretty steady. That is why we are very bullish on the
stable growth of both our revenue and bottom line.
Our operating income before content charge interest and depreciation was Rs.69.9 Crores
this quarter which grew by 31% compared to the last year. The biggest highlight for the
quarter was our music business, which showed its highest quarterly revenue ever at
Rs.150.9 Crores and this is courtesy growth both on the music licensing side as well as our
retail business which is primarily Carvaan.
Let me start with music licensing, our core business, which again in this quarter has grown
at a rate over 20%. It was the beginning of a big quarter for us because some of the regional
language films that we had acquired have started coming out in Q2. This included
Chiranjeevi and Salman Khan starrer Telugu film Godfather, Punjabi superstar Diljit
Dosanjh’s film Babe Bhangra Paunde Ne, the Hindi film Chup by Balki, Dhanush’s Tamil
film Naane Varuvean, Kalyan Ram’s Telugu film Bimbisara, Malayalam superstar Manju
Warrier’s film Ayish, Anurag Kashyap’s Hindi film Do,Baaraa and many more. In our
presentation, we have shared a list of some of our high-profile films that we released in this
quarter. Our strategy remains that we will not only concentrate on Hindi but will also take
leadership position across all the major Indian languages. We also released many originals
and recreations in Hindi and other languages including a new song from Adnan Sami. This
was a very big quarter for our Bhojpuri music where the Bhojpuri superstar Pawan Singh
released a very big song for us called Lal Ghaagra. This is in fact the fastest Bhojpuri song
to reach 50 million number on YouTube. We had an equally big hit coming from the other
superstar of Bhojpuri, Khesari Lal Yadav, called Bondhu Tin Din and this also featured in
the top trending songs of the country. Punjabi saw successful songs from an artist called
Satinder Sartaj while Bengali had songs from Anupam Roy and the Usha Uthup. I am
taking only a select few names of the high-profile and successful songs. We also recently
announced a strategic long term tie up with Arijit Singh both for creating original songs as
well as recreations across multiple languages. Our strategy of investing in new content is
clearly paying off. It is giving us greater leverage with all our partners because we are no
longer just the biggest catalogue company, but also enjoy leadership position in new music
and we define new music as anything which is less than 18 months old. Anything beyond
that starts moving towards catalogue.
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The song selection continues to be done basis data analytics allowing us to get the higher
quality songs at hopefully better prices. This is helping us get market leadership position
across languages while sticking to our ROI guidelines.
Many of you people have asked us about our Rs.750 Crores that we have raised through
QIP last year. Apart from the issue expenses, that money was used only for acquisition of
Mango Music’s catalogue. That money is kept secured primarily looking at inorganic
purchases. Right now, our internal accruals are more than enough to take care of all the
organic music purchases that we people are doing. The QIP money is invested in high
quality debt funds and fixed deposits, so it is safe and secured. And as committed to you
this money will be used only and only for music business of ours.
Our reliance on data mining and use of predictive models is reducing our dependence on a
centralized music selection process and / or individual based gut call. Many of the films
whose music we have acquired will start getting released from the Q4 of this year and may
go to Q1 and Q2 of the next financial year. Some of the big films may be Karan Johar’ next
directorial film Rocky Aur Rani Ki Prem Kahani, another Dharma Production film called
Rola. There is also a Vicky Kaushal Sara Ali movie called Zara Hatke Zara Bachke. There
is Vijay Deverakonda and Samantha’s Telugu film called Kushi. There is Prithviraj
Sukumaran the Malayalam superstar’s next film Kaapa; the big star from Punjabi Ammy
Virk film Oye Makhna.
This quarter saw an upswing in the Carvaan numbers. We touched 156,000 sales compared
to 103,000 sales in the same quarter last year. All the sale is coming courtesy the customer
pull - that is the power of the brand Carvaan that is still there in the market. The latest
variant of Carvaan is Carvaan mobile. This product was launched to get a lower price point
for Carvaan. It replaced one of our existing similar variants called Carvaan Go which is
now being phased out. In the smaller towns it is allowing us to get a Carvaan variant at
Rs.2000 and Rs.2500 points, which is lower than the price point of Carvaan Mini also.
Please keep in mind that while the number of units sold have increased by 50% odd
compared to last year, the revenue increase is lower than that because we must sell two and
a half Carvaan Mobiles to become equivalent to one Carvaan. The average realization per
unit sold has come down but the overall Carvaan revenue still has grown out handsomely
though not as high as 50%. We have not been promoting or spending any above-the-line
marketing monies right now and the strategy will continue even in Q3. As stated earlier
also, the interesting part about Carvaan is that it acts as a very effective marketing tool for
exposing retro catalogue of ours to the younger age segment. When parents listen to their
favorite retro music at home on Carvaan, the children by default get exposed to it. This
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behavior is getting validated both by consumer research and consumption patterns. We
recently carried out an exercise to find the consumption growth of the retro songs - which
have been put on Carvaan versus those which have not been put -in terms of numbers on
streaming platforms and YouTube. We are seeing that the songs which have been put in the
Carvaan devices, are growing at a faster pace than the songs that have not been put inside
any Carvaan variant. Actual data is coming out and telling us that Carvaan is working out
as a great marketing tool to help our music licensing business also.
This was a slow quarter for Yoodlee with no significant releases happening here which is
expected. Most of our releases as stated in my last call also will be in Q3 and Q4. Our TV
serials on Sun TV continue doing well in terms of TRPs. We launched a new Tamil TV
serial called Ilakkiya. This serial replaces one of our existing serials called Chandralekha,
which had completed 2300 episodes on Sun TV - a program that we are extremely proud of
and our partnership with Sun TV that we are very proud of. We hope that the new serial
will follow the same successful path that Chandralekha had. It has opened to very decent
TRPs and we hope they will continue.
We launched our new business vertical called Live music and events during the Q1 wherein
we had done concerts of Diljit Dosanjh in Canada and India. We continued with that in Q2
with six concerts of Diljit Dosanjh in US. Both in Canada and US, the concerts sold more
tickets than any of the other contemporary artists have ever done in the recent times. So we
are very happy and proud of the way we have been able to kick-start the live events
business. It is a low-margin business, and we are aware of it. We still believe it is an
essential business for us, to protect our music licensing business. The Live business gives us
great opportunities to build relationships with our artists and promote the song that we may
be working on with our artists.
Overall, a successful Q2 for us. When we look at it, we see it as just another step in the
growth journey that we people started a few years back. Quarter after quarter after quarter
we are solidifying our position both on revenue and profitability fronts across all our
verticals. That will be all from my side. Happy to take questions please.
Moderator:
Thank you very much Sir. We will now begin with the questions and answer session. We
take the first question from the line of Savi Jain from 2Point2 Capital. Please go ahead.
Savi Jain:
I just wanted to ask you about how YouTube is trending because they came out with the
results, and they saw a decline in ad revenues in the long time so is that visible for us also?
Is there some degrowth there or some?
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Vikram Mehra:
Where did you see degrowth in Saregama numbers sorry you have lost me here.
Savi Jain:
Not in Saregama numbers but specifically YouTube?
Vikram Mehra:
No so again remember the numbers for YouTube globally and in India are very, very
different. Nowhere else in the world, the corporate results are as good as we people are
showing in India and which is resulting in YouTube numbers still being very steady as we
people go forward in our country. We have shared our overall YouTube views numbers
also. There is no degrowth that we are seeing here in our country, so I do not know where
you have got this impression.
Savi Jain:
No, I am not saying degrowth may be a slowdown in growth? Is that visible?
Vikram Mehra:
Still going out showing you the revenue numbers. They are coming from somewhere and
the biggest revenue contributors for all labels are audio and video streaming which
primarily means the music OTT apps, YouTubes and the Metas of the world. So, we are
seeing healthy numbers. Yes, July saw little bit of a pressure overall, but I think there have
been very smart recoveries that have been made.
Savi Jain:
And on the views I see that there is a significant increase year-on-year? Is this more user
generated content or is that what is driving lot of this growth?
Vikram Mehra:
Remember for us it does not matter whether it is user generated content or our own channel
content because we get paid almost equal amount of money. We are independent of that.
When you say user generated content remember there are a lot of people who will take
Original Alia Bhatt songs from Gangubai and upload it on their channel. So that is user
generated content only because it is not uploaded on our channel. For us it really does not
matter whether it is coming from our channels, or somebody else’s channel so first let me
get that clarity out. Specific to your question, for Saregama we are seeing over the last four
quarters, the views from our own channel are growing at a much faster pace than the user
generated content. If you study our YouTube views across all our channels – we have
channels in multiple languages - our views on our official channels are growing faster than
any other label. And the reason is simple: we are investing much more in new content than
anybody else.
Savi Jain:
Yes, got that. Did we see a negative impact, there was a period when there was no deal with
Meta for some time? Did that have a negative impact in the quarter?
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Vikram Mehra:
Sir I cannot go back and comment on individual deals. Final numbers for the quarter are
there in front of you and I am very sure you will be proud of the numbers that we people
have written both on the top line and bottom line.
Savi Jain:
Of course. I just wanted to know if the numbers would have been even better if that deal
was there for the full quarter? Also, the YouTube shorts deals that is not there in this quarter
right?
Vikram Mehra:
No Sir YouTube shorts deal was considered as part of this quarter.
Savi Jain:
Great. The numbers are good and hope we will continue in the future.
Vikram Mehra:
Sir we have been doing this for the last many quarters with your blessing hopefully we will.
Savi Jain:
Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you Sir. We take the next question from the line of Aditya Nahar from Alpana
Enterprises. Please go-ahead Sir.
Aditya Nahar:
There are many people to remember today on the call so first of all Vikram congrats on a
great set of numbers. Vikram just on this Reels and Meta and YouTube sort of deal I do not
want to know the specifics but was they were at better terms than we had earlier?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir you have to read in between the lines. I cannot comment on specific deals, but yes if we
are showing substantial growth, it’s happening on the back of better deals. And the deals are
not becoming better because we are some special people. It’s only courtesy, the quality of
the content we are bringing to the table - especially the newer content – it is the strength of
that content.
Aditya Nahar:
Alright so you are saying is because of the strength of the content you are in a better
position to negotiate with larger players now?
Vikram Mehra:
Yes. It is the leadership position. We always were the kings of catalogue right. We have the
largest catalogue in this country, but we had a weak position in newer content, and I have
always accepted and acknowledged that. We build our position on catalogue and now we
are building our position in a very aggressive fashion in new content. And as we achieve
leadership position across multiple languages, it is helping our negotiation position.
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Aditya Nahar:
Sure perfect. My second question is on open stage how is the response if you can just talk
about that or is it too soon?
Vikram Mehra:
It is too soon, and it is one of the multiple specific initiatives’ we people carry out, so all
this is a way to go back and make more money from catalogue. Open stage is nothing but
people coming out there and contributing their derivatives, remixes, lo-fis, trap mixes,
recreations, and cover versions of our catalogue music. Whether it is Carvaan which is
helping us promote it, whether it is playlisting which is helping us promote it, whether it is
going to outside people and saying why do not they send their own versions. All that is
working towards promoting catalogue. So, you will see the final impact of that on the
revenue growth numbers.
Aditya Nahar:
Perfect. Just want to say congratulations on getting the Arijit deal. I am sure it is a great
deal for the future as well and my last question is for actually Pankaj, if possible, any
update Pankaj Sir on the timeline of the demerger, etc., if you could give us an indicative
timeline?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
Yeah sure, in this quarter we got the approvals from the stock exchanges. Post that we have
filed our application with NCLT Kolkata. It normally takes four to five months for this
whole process. It moves through various stages. We are hopeful and we are pushing for
getting the final order and the demerger completed by March 2023 so that is going to be our
endeavour.
Aditya Nahar:
Thank you Vikram. Thank you, Pankaj. Thank you so much and best of luck.
Moderator:
Thank you very much. We take the next question from the line of Swapnil Potdukhe from
JM Financial. Please go-ahead Sir.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Congrats on a good set of numbers first of all. I just there are two or three questions. The
first one is a clarification actually so you mentioned that some of the big budget content will
be released in Q4 or early next year so will that by any chance mean that we are revising
down our capex guidance for FY2023?
Vikram Mehra:
No, we are not.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
With respect to the investment’s guidance, we told 220 to 230 cr broadly? Will that be
lower investments for this fiscal year?
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Vikram Mehra:
At this juncture we are not changing any of our guidance. We will try plugging in the gap
created by the delay of some of our Hindi movie album releases by investing in other
languages.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Okay thanks for that clarification. Secondly when I look at your P&L some of the cost
items such as employee expenses, royalty expenses and other expenses they seemed to have
grown at 20% quarter-on-quarter? Now my earlier sense was that your top line if it grows
around 20% to 25% the cost may not grow at the same rate and there would be some
operation leverage play there which would support our margin improvement which for
some reason has not happened so any reasons you would want to call out?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir which cost lines are you are talking about?
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Employee expenses, royalty expenses and other expenses?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir the employee expenses you are talking about Q2 right?
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Yes Q2?
Vikram Mehra:
Our appraisal systems happen in Q2, and all bonuses of the employees are given in Q2. So
Q2 always for many years, has the highest employee expenses because bonus expenses get
booked at that time. If I look at it on an annual basis at the employee expenses, we have
been able to bring it down over time.
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
Swapnil just to add our employee expenses as a percentage to revenue have come down to
about 11% as compared more than 13% in the same quarter last year so absolute expense
yes they will grow as the business grows but we are watching our margins very closely and
we have been able to improve cost as a percentage to revenue on this line.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Okay and any reason for royalty and other expenses?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir royalty expenses are directly linked to revenue because royalty expenses is the money
that you end up paying for the older content that we have taken, which is 1960s and 1970s
and 1980s content. The more revenue we make - as a percentage that number does not
change that much - but they are in the range typically between 10% to 15%.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
And what about other expenses?
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Vikram Mehra:
It is a purely variable expense Sir. If we make revenue, we pay royalties otherwise there is
no royalty.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
No I am asking about other expenses which have grown to Rs.23.5 Crores versus Rs.19.7
Crores in Q1 quarter and last year same time it was Rs.14.5 Crores?
Vikram Mehra:
As a percentage to revenue this has not grown. We will still clarify the same to you. Just
give us a moment. You are talking about the last line other expenses?
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Yes?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
The increase in other expense, if you look at it on a Q-o-Q basis it is around 12% to 13%
which is in line with our top line growth.
Vikram Mehra:
Swapnil let me put it. Philosophically for a couple of years you will see expenses moving at
a similar pace as revenue. Once we pass the hump, you will see that the growth in expenses
will slow down compared to the growth on the revenue side. But initially to get the new
content engine moving from stationary to the first and second gear, it will require some
amount of fuel consumption. Over time you will end up getting advantage on the margin
side and I am not saying long run. I am talking about short to medium run.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Right. Very clear there Vikram and just a last question from my side. I would like to
understand your events business how big is it right now? What are your plans for the
business over the next one or two years and are we burning any cash right now in the near
term where we will end up spending amount?
Vikram Mehra:
Individual events is combined with the films and television so I cannot give you events’
individual numbers. But event as a concept is a low margin business. I have stated in the
past also that once the business gets stable it will be a 5% to 10% margin business. It is an
essential business to manage my music licensing business. If we are in the newer content
game right now to differentiate myself vis-à-vis the other guys and to build relationships
with the artist, being in the Live business is the very advantageous part. But we will not be
burning cash here.
Swapnil Potdukhe:
Right. Those are my question, Vikram. Thanks a lot for answering.
Moderator:
Thank you Sir. We take the next question from the line of Nikhil Moryani from Valiant
Investments. Please go-ahead Sir.
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Nikhil Moryani:
Good afternoon, everyone. Vikram I just wanted a confirmation from what you told the
earlier speaker the event revenue is not part of the music licensing revenue right?
Vikram Mehra:
No Sir. At this juncture we are combining with the Films and TV business.
Nikhil Moryani:
Alright thank you and one more thing. Would it be possible for you to give us a breakup
between revenue from catalogue and new music?
Vikram Mehra:
No Sir. It is very confidential information.
Nikhil Moryani:
No Sir may be not for this quarter or for the current financial year? May be for the last
financial year or previous financial years?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir I think the closest we can get to you or give an answer to you if you look at my last
corporate presentation it very clearly shows how much revenue do we make from which
decade of music. Two years ago, a majority of our revenue was coming from our 20th
century music. Last year 40% of our revenue came from 21st century music, and in the 21st
century, majority of the content investment has been done in the last three to four years
only. Hopefully, this will give you perceptive.
Nikhil Moryani:
No because as investors we would want to track how are we doing on getting a payback so
this number will be very helpful?
Vikram Mehra:
So that is extremely confidential and competitive sensitive information which we will not
be able to share
Nikhil Moryani:
I understand. Alright Sir thank you very much for your time.
Moderator:
Thank you very much. We take the next question from the line of Priyankar Sarkar from
Famycare Capital. Please go-ahead Sir.
Priyankar Sarkar:
Thanks. Vikram I just wanted to understand the YouTube shorts business? Obviously
because we are growing at a predominant phase but what I wanted to understand is that is
there a minimum number of seconds that it has to play for us to get a revenue share?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir on YouTube Shorts?
Priyankar Sarkar:
Yes?
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Vikram Mehra:
Sir, All short-format video Apps like Sharechat, Moj, Insta, YouTube Shorts globally pay
us a fixed fee. It is not a variable model yet. None of these guys have been able to crack a
variable model yet. I expect that to happen in the next couple of years. At this juncture they
work on a fixed payment module which we renegotiate every year. On YouTube its a
variable model which is a more evolved model now. On YouTube every time an ad gets
presented on a Saregama owned IP, we get 55% of the ad revenue
Priyankar Sarkar:
Okay got it and Vikram the second question I wanted to ask is about this cash balance so
what I saw from a Rs.930 odd Crores of cash and it has been a year since we raised the
capital so it is like to like no deals as such are available over the last 12 months as we could
acquire new catalogues or how is that because it has been a year right so wondering on that
front?
Vikram Mehra:
We are constantly debating between optimal cash utilization and buying catalogues at fair
valuations. We had to say no to a few deals because of unviable valuations or poor
paperwork. We are in conversations but the reality at this moment we only have one deal. I
will be honest with you. Just because we have collected money we do not want to go out
and blow the cash by buying catalogues at unreasonable valuations. We want it to come at a
multiple that make logical sense.
Priyankar Sarkar:
Okay fair enough. Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you Sir. We take the next question from the line of Nitin Sharma from MC Pro
Research. Please go ahead.
Nitin Sharma:
Thanks a lot. Congrats on a good set of numbers. A couple of questions if I may. First, can
you help us understand what caused the surge in the other current liabilities this quarter? I
think it is up Rs.100 Crores or so?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
Yes, basis our negotiations for all the licensing deals, we do get revenue in advance on the
licensing deals. However, our accounting happens on an accrual basis spread over the deal
period. It is purely of that nature. It is not a liability in the sense wherein it needs to be
repaid. These are all income received in advances.
Nitin Sharma:
Understood. Secondly is it a right assessment that if I let us say your Carvaan sales are on
an average 4K for this quarter it seems that prices have gone up recently? It is contributing
around 30% to 35% of the revenue correct me if I am wrong here?
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Vikram Mehra:
We give breakup of the music licensing and Carvaan business on an annual basis. At the
end of Q4 we will share the numbers once again.
Nitin Sharma:
So, I am arriving at a pure music license, but it has seen some bit of slowdown
sequentially?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir I am going on record saying it has not.
Nitin Sharma:
Understood and lastly one question just to understand you mentioned on previous question
that there was some Carvaan logistic related cost so has it also affected the segment margins
for the music business? Will that come down slightly?
Vikram Mehra:
When you are saying it has come down you are talking on a percentage basis?
Nitin Sharma:
Around 3%-point segment margin.
Vikram Mehra:
Carvaan business currently is a breakeven to a low margin business Hence, at an aggregate
level, the Music business margin percentage will always look down if the Carvaan revenues
start going up.
Nitin Sharma:
Understood super helpful. Thank you.
Vikram Mehra:
Again, I am telling that the music growth numbers are not slowing down. In fact, they are
steady. That is why we are maintaining the projection of 22% to 25% growth on annual
basis. We are also not making any change in our projections on our margin side.
Nitin Sharma:
Understood. Thanks a lot. All the best.
Moderator:
Thank you very much. We take the next question from the line of Ankush Agrawal from
Surge Capital. Please go-ahead Sir.
Ankush Agrawal:
Thanks for taking my questions. Vikram firstly I want to understand like in terms of say if
we are spending Rs.100 on new content what would be the broad range of amount that
would be going towards royalty-based deals versus the fixed deal a broad range would
suffice?
Vikram Mehra:
That breakup I cannot give you at this moment. What I can tell you is that if there is a
Rs.100 deal on an overage Rs.80 goes towards content and Rs.20 goes to marketing.
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Ankush Agrawal:
That is understandable. What am I trying to say is if you spending Rs.100 say probably half
of the deals or half of the new deals that we are making are fixed and half of the new deals
that you are making are royalty-based deals?
Vikram Mehra:
I cannot give that breakup Sir because its competitor sensitive information. The only
segment where you are looking at royalty-based deals is Hindi films.
Ankush Agrawal:
The rest everything you are saying is fixed deal?
Vikram Mehra:
Yes.
Ankush Agrawal:
Right and again on this royalty also like you have mentioned that earlier like the older
content is 10% to 15% kind of royalty so would it be possible to share what will be the
higher range of the new deals because you have already mentioned that the new deals have
a higher royalty versus the 10% to 15% so on the upper side may be it is like 40% and 50%
more some kind of level that you can highlight?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir we can’t share this information. If we give you the highest possible number for royalty,
then every partner will ask for the same percentage but what we can share is that an
aggregate basis when we look at catalogue and newer music, this number should not change
substantially because lot of our new music is going to be on a fixed fee basis. So at the
overall business level, between the catalogue, Hindi film new music, non-Hindi film new
music – the royalty % will remain between 10% to 15% of the overall revenue
Ankush Agrawal:
But this 10% to 15% is including the revenue from the fixed fee deal, denominator is the
full year basis?
Vikram Mehra:
I understand. It does not answer your question directly, but it is market sensitive
information
Ankush Agrawal:
No, I can understand that the reason that to a great extent. Another thing is Vikram over
here so if I look at your presentation on the content charge you mentioned that we do not
include the royalty which is paid after the minimum upfront amount so I was wondering
why do not we include the subsequent royalty into that because it is the content cost so if
you are breaking this up that the content charge that you are showing only includes the
royalty up front amount and not the royalty that you are paying after the recoupment of
advance? It does not give a good understanding of what is the actual content charge because
now it is fine, we do not have a lot of royalty, but I think given the kind of content that you
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are acquiring couple of years down the line the royalty component that would be in the
other expenses and the content charge would be substantial.
Vikram Mehra:
For Hindi films the deal may be that we will pay them X Crores up front plus Y Crores of
marketing and the music becomes ours. We then start recouping this X+Y. On top of that
typically there is a hurdle rate which is put. Once we recovered X+Y+ the hurdle rate then
we start paying royalties to them. So, royalty payout will start hitting our books only for
those Hindi movies where we have fully recouped the initial money we had paid, the
marketing costs and the hurdle rate.
Ankush Agrawal:
Yes, that is understandable? What I was suggesting is that in the end it is a cost attached to
a content right so if we include that in the content charge it would give a better
understanding that was just a suggestion but either way lastly Vikram one thing I wanted to
understand so if I look at the quarterly royalty number it is about Rs.15 odd Crores right and
if I calculate based on what you have mentioned that the royalty expense is somewhere
around 15% odd so that comes around Rs.100 Crores of revenue right with is just broadly
the entire cost we have on the entire revenue that we have on the license side broadly so the
thing is not adding up because if you see the older content is 10% to 15% kind of royalty
and if I assume that is the major part of royalty expense and the reverse calculation that
would be indicating that the entire revenue or the license is coming through that kind of
music right which is royalty attached so not sure like I put it on the right sense but it is not
adding up the number?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
Probably the way you are calculating has too much of approximation. The music licensing
revenue that probably you are calculating has a mix of many parameters. As Vikram
explained the royalty expenses that we account for under the head royalty start kicking in
after we have recouped the initial amount paid plus the hurdle rate; and there are royalty-
based deals in Hindi, but the other languages may not have these kinds of deals; so there are
too many variables in it.
Vikram Mehra:
Please keep one thing in mind, Carvaan also has a royalty expense. Your current
assumption that royalty expenses pertain only to Music Licensing business is not true. We
pay royalties for the preloaded music on Carvaan also.
Ankush Agrawal:
That was clear. Thanks.
Moderator:
Thank you Sir. We take the next question from the line of Varun Arora from Safe
Enterprise. Please go-ahead Sir.
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Varun Arora:
Thanks for the opportunity. Vikram my question is regarding OIBCID margins? At the
beginning of the year, you have indicated 33% margins? If I look at last two quarters, we
have been doing 38% to 37% so just wanted to check are we sticking to that and what is the
reason for that lower guidance? What will be the moving parts which will kind of drive this
margin?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir right now I will still stick to 32% to 33% OIBCID margin number. I know the last two
quarters we have done better than that but for this year I continue with that number. Let us
have the chat at the end of Q4.
Varun Arora:
Correct and what will be the moving parts Vikram the reason you want to stick to this
guidance because of?
Vikram Mehra:
We have a much better control on the music licensing part. But the moment you are looking
at events business which at this juncture - being in the first six months - is going to be a
very, very low margin business. If we suddenly end up having a large event generating 20-
40cr revenue at a margin of 2-4%, it changes the entire mix. . . Secondly, the films business
is growing in an aggressive fashion. The film business is 15% to 20% margin business. We
do not know exactly what releases will finally happen in Q3 and Q4. If we were only in the
stable music licensing business, we could have given higher projections. But with the
uncertainty of Films and Events business, we will continue maintaining a 32% to 33%
projection of OIBICD. It is just a mix game and nothing else.
Varun Arora:
Sure. The second question is Vikram regarding the content acquisition cost? Now I
understand like during the pandemic there was no content which was coming out, but the
last few quarters would you say that we can kind of look at last three quarters the number as
the base on which our content acquisition cost should kind of come going forward since the
last few quarters are more normalized quarters in terms of content coming out?
Vikram Mehra:
Sorry Sir I am not clear about your question. Are you saying content costs will go up?
Varun Arora:
So during the pandemic there were no movies which were coming out so naturally we were
not acquiring new content right but the last few quarters we have seen like movies are
coming out, you are acquiring content so I am saying the base that we are seeing in the last
two quarters the content acquisition cost that we have seen in the last two quarters? Now
would you say that it has reached like the normalized levels? Obviously, they were at much
higher compared to the last year levels but the numbers that we are seeing in Q2 and Q1
touched a more normalized content acquisition cost that we should see going forward?
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Vikram Mehra:
No Sir, it will go up because our bigger films, primarily the Hindi ones, have not started
Saregama India Limited November 01, 2022
coming out yet. We started acquiring bigger Hindi films early this year, immediately after
the QIP. And in Hindi films typically there is a lag of 12-18 months between music partner
finalization and release of the film. So, you will be finding our bigger Hindi movies coming
from Q4 or Q1, FY24 onwards. Hence, the numbers will be a little higher.
We had given an earlier guidance that our aim is to pick 30% of all content coming out in
the year. Our estimate is that roughly 800cr worth of new content will come out at industry
level. We have also shared our content charging policy. The combination of the above two
will give a good idea of where the year will end.
Varun Arora:
That is helpful. Thank you so much.
Moderator:
Thank you very much Sir. We take the next question from the line of Devanshu Sampat
from Yes Securities. Please go-ahead Sir.
Devanshu Sampat:
Good evening. I had a few questions so your artist management business can this take up a
sizeable chunk of your investment going forward?
Vikram Mehra:
No Sir artist management business requires low investment. Because when we sign an
artist, what we primarily spend on is his/her songs, which we anyway have to invest as part
of our music business, we see see artist management business as a byproduct of our core
music licensing business. It will neither take large investments nor become a game changer
in terms of revenue or profitability. It is one of those very essential things that we need to
protect your core business of licensing.
Devanshu Sampat:
So just to understand what all is involved here so if you are signing a new artist right the
marketing cost and the video shoot and everything that happens is something that will
essentially be done by a label right?
Vikram Mehra:
We constantly need artistes to create new songs and music videos. Typically, we go to 3rd
party artistes, and spend large sums in creating songs with them. Now instead we will
discover and sign new talent and invest in creating music with him/her. If the artiste
become big, there is potential upside in terms of a share of his live performances and brand
endorsement deals.
Devanshu Sampat:
Got it. Sir another question to do with something you mentioned in your opening comments
right so you spoke about our data analytics capability is it possible you can help with
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understanding the share of new users and their streaming contribution and how they are
growing versus existing users who have been around say like for a year or so and what is
their contribution and what is that growth coming from them?
Vikram Mehra:
Please understand the consumption data that we have is at the song level and not at the user
level. Remember the users are owned by Spotify, Saavn, Wynk etc and not by us. What we
get on a daily basis is consumption data of our songs across all streaming platforms. On
YouTube we have invested in technology to track daily viewing numbers of all songs
belonging to us and competition. What we don’t know is the end user behind the stream or
the view.
Devanshu Sampat:
But you will get the mix between the paid subscriber versus…
Vikram Mehra:
We get separate data on number of streams coming from free vs paid customers
Devanshu Sampat:
Can you give you sense on what is it right now?
Vikram Mehra:
So, it is still a free world. Paid subscribers are still low but as stated in the past also, we
expect music subscription economy to start growing in the next 18 to 24 months in India.
The video OTT platforms have gone through a similar transition in India. Music
subscription has taken off everywhere else in the world. In fact, they are close to 525 to 540
million paid subscribers globally. We see the same thing happening in India. It is just a
matter of time now.
Devanshu Sampat:
Okay sure Sir. Just another question just to understand how this works is suppose a person
who is very famous on YouTube for example for a dance channel, but they use your own
music so how will the split work over here?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir if anybody uses any part of our song whether it is the original song or the lyrics of the
song or the music composition in their video, then Saregama has a right to either strike it
down or claim the advertising money flowing to this video
Devanshu Sampat:
Okay so the incentive for the person owning the channel would be some other way out?
Vikram Mehra:
A lot of artists release cover or remix versions of our popular songs on video sharing apps
in order to get instant recognition on social media. Their popularity then helps them make
money on the live performance circuit. Eg a new singer may create cover version of
Badshah’s Paani Paani or Kishore Kumar’s Mere Sapno Ki Rani Kab Aayegi Tu to cut
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through much faster because people already know the song. He then puts it on YouTube.
Saregama makes all advertising money, but the artist may become popular with that song
and get invited to perform at a restaurant or a wedding.
Devanshu Sampat:
Then at which point do you start making money from their live performances?
Vikram Mehra:
That is what we were lacking till now. With Artiste Management vertical, we will plug in
this revenue stream also
Devanshu Sampat:
Sure, Sir and Sir just last any update on the land bank that is sitting on our books in terms of
value unlocking amortization?
Vikram Mehra:
The land bank doesn’t take any new investments from our side. Whenever there is any
update on monetizing the same, we will inform you people.
Devanshu Sampat:
I understand but in terms of market value it seems like a sizeable chunk for this, so I was
just wondering from that angle?
Vikram Mehra:
Its value will be unlocked someday Sir. It will only be good news whenever it comes.
Devanshu Sampat:
Okay that is it from my side. Wishing you all the very best. Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you very much Sir. We take the next question from the line of Kishan Amarchand
Tosniwal from Polar Ventures LLP. Please go-ahead Sir.
Kishan Amarchand T: Congratulations on a good set of numbers. I have two questions basically? I just wanted to
know the demerger company that will happen, the segmental revenue shows television and
even ad publication so what all will go into that demergered company out of these?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
So it is going to be all the noncore businesses of Saregama that gets moved down so which
means the non-exclusive distribution of our retail, the publication side as well as some of
the investments which were noncore to Saregama so they get to the new resultant company
they move out.
Kishan Amarchand T: Does that mean noncore will mean the real estate part as well will go into that?
Pankaj Chaturvedi:
No, non-core means the publication side that I just mentioned to you and some of the
investments that we were holding, but not the real estate.
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Kishan Amarchand T: Okay the second question is when what do you say Carvaan that you have launched the
newer version of the Carvaan mobile version is that going to be more margin accretive than
the earlier Carvaan version which was the radio kind of a Carvaan?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir the margin percentage is similar across all the Carvaan variants; from the radio Carvaan
to mini Carvaan to Carvaan mobile or a Musicbar. This is something we are very particular
about. While Carvaan is priced at Rs.6000, the Carvaan mobile is between Rs.2000 and
Rs.2500. So, the absolute margins on Carvaan Mobile are lower. The upside is that Carvaan
Mobile is allowing us to penetrate smaller towns of the country. And as I mentioned earlier,
all Carvaan variants help increase the popularity of our music catalogue. Those older songs
again become top of mind and then often other members of the family end up consuming
this content on YouTube and OTT also.
Kishan Amarchand T:
So, this Carvaan that you are making will also go to the demerged company?
Vikram Mehra:
No Sir the Carvaan remains as part of Saregama. The demerged company will have a non-
exclusive right to sell that Carvaan on digital platforms.
Kishan Amarchand T:
Is Carvaan profitable business or is it still we are burning cash into it?
Vikram Mehra:
Carvaan was profitable in FY18 and FY19. In FY2020 we lost money on Carvaan due to
Covid induced supply and demand issues in Q4. Since then, Carvaan has been a breakeven
business. And it will continue to be a breakeven to a low margin business in the immediate
future. The margins will improve as the sales numbers start going up. But the real upside of
Carvaan is the free marketing it offers for our music licensing business.
Kishan Amarchand T: Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you very much Sir. We take the next question from the line of Anika Mittal from
Invest Research. Please go-ahead Sir.
Anika Mittal:
Good evening, Sir. Sir what are the risks do we see in the near term or midterm for our
business like any kind of cyber risk to our IP properties and all this?
Vikram Mehra:
Actually, the great thing about IP is even if you steal my song the ownership still sits with
us. So, in that sense it is not a physical product they are still stealing.
Anika Mittal:
I was asking from your acting and all this stuff like hacking of YouTube channels and all
these stuffs Sir? What are the internal measures we are taking in that?
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Vikram Mehra:
Its ownership cannot be stolen. What can be stolen is Saregama’s revenue by not taking a
Saregama India Limited November 01, 2022
license for the song. Now the good part is that post 2015, the content consumption has
moved primarily to the app world and away from the browser world. What do I mean by
that? Up till 2015 to 2016 also many of us used to consume content on our laptops and
desktops but we are seeing 2014-15 as the watershed moment. There are far greater
population of the world which now consumes content only on their phones and not by
typing www.something.com. Now the good part about app world is that it is controlled
primarily by two companies Google and Apple. So, if there is any app sitting on a Google
store or an Apple store which is infringing our content, we take the help of Google and
Apple to throw that app out of that store. This allows us to control piracy to a great extent.
We may still have piracy happening in the smaller towns whereby consumers go to the
panwala shops and ask side-loading of some of the songs onto their mobile phones. We
believe this problem will eventually go away like it has vanished from Mumbai, Delhi,
Bengaluru etc
Anika Mittal:
Understood Sir and Sir one more thing you were talking about some big movies getting
delayed from Q4 to Q1 next year and you were also saying the other content will fill up the
same so that content will be big enough to set off the same Sir?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir it may not be exact replacement. There are very few albums of the stature of a Karan
Johar film. We will still try maintaining our market share by investing in non-film songs eg.
the recent tie up with Arijit Singh will help release one very big song in Q4.
Anika Mittal:
Understood Sir. That is, it from my side Sir. Congratulations to you and your team Sir.
Moderator:
Thank you Sir. We take the next question from the line of Himani Shah from Alchemy.
Please go-ahead Sir.
Himani Shah:
Congratulations on a great set of numbers and most of my questions are answered. Just one
question is on the artist management side can we say that since we are signing an agreement
with Arijit Singh for new content that they also guys that we would be managing on the
artist management side?
Vikram Mehra:
No. In both the cases, Diljit and Arijit, we are doing specific projects with them which are
long term projects, but we are not managing those artists. Our endeavor at this juncture on
artist management is to work with newer artists.
Himani Shah:
Any names which on that you can likely say?
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Vikram Mehra:
Himani at the right time we will share.
Himani Shah:
Got it. Thank you and congratulations again.
Moderator:
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Ravi Naredi from Naredi
Investments. Please go-ahead Sir.
Ravi Naredi:
Vikram I am patiently listening to you and listen to the answers up to mark. Sir how much
money we have debited towards the content charges in Q2 and H1?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir I can tell you the total content charge in Q2 is Rs.17 Crores. On the H1 basis is Rs.34
Crores.
Ravi Naredi:
Thank you. As we are bigger in music and main revenue earnings, we may say our bread
and butter comes from music can you tell in longer run say three to five years film will be
also substantial part of earning?
Vikram Mehra:
Yes Sir. We believe some businesses will continue growing now at a 25% year-on-year. But
music business has a huge head start. Last year films and TV business was sitting at Rs.100
Crores while music business was sitting closer to Rs.370 Crores. So, music is far bigger, but
we see films and series also becoming substantial in the days to come.
Ravi Naredi:
Right and Sir how 5G will help our business?
Vikram Mehra:
How?
Ravi Naredi:
5G?
Vikram Mehra:
Anything that allows consumption to go up is beneficial to our business. 5G will allow
better quality audio and video to be delivered to people’s phones and TV sets. Till a couple
of years ago, we used to watch only DTH and cable TV channels on our TV set. Now many
of us have started watching our Netflix and Amazon and Hotstar on those TVs. Even for
YouTube, the fastest growing segment now is the smart television. This creates a great
opportunity for large content library owners like us to deliver our content on large TV sets,
making them more accessible to 70 years old nana nanis also. Already people are glued on
to their devices all the time. With the speeds offered by 5G, this consumption may go up
substantially. Which is great news for the the largest IP owner in India, Saregama.
Ravi Naredi:
So, we may assume there will be tailwinds will be for longer time in our business?
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Vikram Mehra:
We are very clear about this the good times have just started. The music industry is very
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small in our country and has got a very, very long way to go. It’s piracy that had killed the
industry earlier. With companies like us investing heavy in technology, piracy may become
a problem of the past very soon. I think we have serious tailwinds behind us. The primary
catalyst will be the Indian economy one thing we all are agreeing is in the next 10 to 20
years belong to our country. So, there will be money coming in, better devices, and better IP
laws protecting rights. Indian judiciary has started taking IP infringement very seriously,
thus protecting the IP investments, Entrainment IP is also the soft power with which India
can go back and influence things at a global level. If America could do it with Hollywood
movies, we can do an equally good job with Bollywood movies and music. So, we think
everything at this juncture is falling in the right palace. The companies who are investing in
data science, technology and new content are going to do well.
Ravi Naredi:
Can we say in the next 10 to 20 years if not for India even our company will grow too much
right?
Vikram Mehra:
Sir we have no doubt about that and have put our bet on it. Technology and Data Science
are the pillars on which we will build this growth story. In today’s time and age, you cannot
decide on a song basis one person’s gut call or on a movie basis the lead actor.
Entertainment companies have to invest in data science in a big fashion. Now we are
reaching a phase where we can track customer interest on scene-by-scene basis and take
corrective actions if possible. The same thing we are doing with music. We track the drop
rates of a song on a per frame basis, giving us valuable insights on what increases or
reduces engagement. This is used for making the next set of songs better, I think this is a
good story waiting to unfold.
Ravi Naredi:
Really you had given a very elaborate answer and everything. All the best to you and your
team and company because it is our company too. Thank you very much Sir.
Moderator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for the day. I would now like
to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Vikram Mehra:
Thank you everyone. Thank you for this patient listening. I am often asked whether the best
part of our journey is already over, and we keep stating that the growth story has just
started. Indian Music industry which was literally a barren land has just started showing
some off shoots of growth. There is a full tree that needs to get planted - both on the music
and video side. In the days to come, more people will watch content on smart phones, and
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they will watch more content per day than what they are doing now. So as a company we
will continue investing in IP to get a lion’s share of this growth.
We maintain, as we go forward, our bullish stance on music licensing 22% to 25% growth
year-on-year on a short to medium term basis. We continue with our content investments on
film side on Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Punjabi, some bit of Bengali and on the non-
film side on Hindi, Bhojpuri, Gujarati and some other languages including devotional in a
big fashion. We continue with a cautious approach on Carvaan. Carvaan is a great
marketing tool for our music licensing business. We understand the power of it but we will
also ensure that Carvaan remains withing breakeven to a low margin range. We believe in
the days to come even the margin percentages can go back to FY19 levels. Our films, series
and television business are expected to grow at 20% to 25% on a year-on-year basis with a
15% margin. Event business will build up slowly, but it will always remain a low margin
business, but it is a crucial business to have as part of our armory. It not only helps our
music licensing business but also hedges our dependence on advertising revenues. So
overall we are happy with Q2 and maintain our bullish stand on the entertainment industry
and Saregama’s future both from the topline and the bottom-line perspective in the days to
come. Thank you and look forward to talking to you at the end of Q3.
Moderator:
Thank you. On behalf of ICICI Securities that concludes this conference call. Thank you for
joining us and you may now disconnect your lines.
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