Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited has informed the Exchange regarding the Transcript of Earnings Conference Call held on Friday, May 16, 2025 for Q4FY25
Date: May 22, 2025
To, Sr. General Manager Listing Department BSE Limited Phiroze Jeejeebhoy Towers Dalal Street Mumbai – 400 001
To, Sr. General Manager Listing Department National Stock Exchange of India Limited Exchange Plaza, C-1, Block G Bandra Kurla Complex Bandra (E), Mumbai – 400 051
BSE Scrip Code: 544319
NSE Symbol: SENORES
Sub.: Compliance under Regulation 30 of Securities and Exchange Board of India (Listing Obligations and Disclosure Requirements) Regulations, 2015– Transcript of the Earnings Conference Call – Q4FY25
Dear Sir/Madam,
Pursuant to Regulation 30 of the Securities and Exchange Board of India (Listing Obligations and Disclosure Requirements) Regulations, 2015, and in continuation to our intimations dated May 12, 2025 and May 16, 2025, please find enclosed the transcript of the Earnings Conference Call for the Q4FY25, held on Friday, May 16, 2025 at 04:00 P.M. (IST).
The aforesaid information is also being hosted on the Company's website at www.senorespharma.com.
You are requested to take the same on record.
Thanking you.
For Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited
Vinay Kumar Mishra Company Secretary and Compliance Officer ICSI Membership No.: F11464
Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited 1101 to 1103, 11th Floor, South Tower, One42, Opp. Jayantilal Park, Ambali Bopal Road, Ahmedabad‐380054, Gujarat, India
P: +91 79 2999 9857 | E: info@senorespharma.com W: www.senorespharma.com | CIN No.: L24290GJ2017PLC100263
“Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited
4QFY25 Earnings Conference Call”
May 16, 2025
E&OE - This transcript is edited for factual errors. In case of discrepancy, the audio recordings
uploaded on the stock exchange on 16th May, 2025 will prevail.
MANAGEMENT: MR. SWAPNIL SHAH – MANAGING DIRECTOR –
SENORES PHARMACEUTICALS LIMITED MR. SANJAY MAJMUDAR – CHAIRMAN – SENORES PHARMACEUTICALS LIMITED MR. DEVAL SHAH – WHOLE TIME DIRECTOR AND CFO– SENORES PHARMACEUTICALS LIMITED
MODERATOR: MR. PRASHANT NAIR – AMBIT CAPITAL
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Moderator:
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q4 and FY25 Earnings Conference Call
of Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-
only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation
concludes. Should you need any assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator
by pressing star and then zero on your touchtone phone.
Please note that this conference may contain forward looking statements about the company
which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call.
These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and
uncertainties that are difficult to predict.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Prashant Nair from Ambit Capital. Thank you and over
to you.
Prashant Nair:
Yes, thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Ambit Capital, I welcome you all to
the Senores Pharma 4QFY25 Earnings Call. We have the following members of management
with us. Mr. Swapnil Shah, Managing Director. Mr. Sanjay Majmudar, Chairperson. Mr. Deval
Shah, Chief Financial Officer. I now hand over the call to Mr. Swapnil Shah to take it forward.
Over to you, Mr. Swapnil.
Swapnil Shah:
Okay, good. Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us on Senores Pharmaceuticals
Limited Q4 and FY25 Earnings Conference Call. Along with me on the call, we have our
Chairman, Mr. Sanjay Majmudar, our CFO, Mr. Deval Shah, and our IR team from SGA, our
Investor Relations partner. We have uploaded the results, press release, and investor
presentation on the Stock Exchanges as well as on the company website. I hope everybody had
an opportunity to go through the same.
Continuing on our laid out strategies, we have delivered a resilient performance across segments
in Q4 FY '25. In the regulated market, we have expanded our ANDA portfolio. We have
acquired 14 ANDAs from Dr. Reddy's, one from Breckenridge. This takes our portfolio to about
61 ANDA products, of which large number of ANDAs have potential of catering to large
government contracts in the U.S., giving us an edge to enhance our market share.
The product acquisitions are in line with our strategy of inorganic expansion to grow our product
basket. The acquired ANDA basket is spread across CNS, Cardiac, Antifungal, multiple other
therapeutic segments as we speak. Our total commercialized ANDA portfolio stood at 22 as of
March 31, 2025.
As you know, constantly changing scenarios have made global trade dynamics very volatile.
However, we should be able to navigate the situation comparatively better. Our US FDA-
approved manufacturing facility located in the U.S., through which we cater to our regulated
markets, gives us a considerable advantage versus players who do not have the manufacturing
footprint in the U.S. Hence, we should be insulated from any tariff-related risk which other
manufacturers might face.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
On our manufacturing side, we already have two operational lines and two more operational
lines that are in works that should give us a sizable volume output going forward. Having said
that, there was some holding back during the quarter in terms of commercial launches by a few
of our marketing partners as we speak. However, we are seeing the momentum pick up
massively on some of the launches that were slightly delayed. We have launched some products
in the ongoing quarter, and we are optimistic of the momentum to remain steady going forward.
As of now, we are planning to launch around 31 ANDA products in the regulated market in FY
'26 and 23 CDMO-CMO products in the current financial year.
Our CDMO-CMO segment is seeing steady traction with scaling up as well. We have added
one product last quarter and adding more as we speak today. Our portfolio now stands at about
22 products. We have around 69 products in CDMO-CMO pipeline as of March 2025 at various
levels of which many of them will be commercialized in the fiscal year as we will keep on
adding our portfolio.
The most in our CDMO-CMO segment comes from our ability to cater to government contracts
and our ability to manufacture and supply controlled substances in the U.S. With D.A. and B.A.
certification for our manufacturing facility gives us a considerable advantage compared to all
other competitors. We have seen healthy growth in our product segment in all our regulated
market business, which is our largest business.
We continue to show consistent growth driven by the portfolio expansion and increasing market
penetration. Our existing portfolio and the pipeline in the own product segment coupled with
the contracts in hand on CDMO-CMO segment gives us a good visibility for the next year in
the regulated market as we speak. We will continue to double down on our regulated market
business, particularly in the U.S., apart from expanding to newer micro markets.
The focus will be on faster expansion of our own products’ portfolio coupled with fast tracking
the CDMO-CMO segment. As we speak, we will continue to look for more inorganic growth
opportunities in the current year and the coming years.
Coming to emerging market business, we have registered 48 products during the current quarter,
making our portfolio to 285 registered products as of 31st March 2025. We have filed nine more
products during this quarter. With the current product pipeline, we intend to have a portfolio of
650 plus registered products across all emerging markets by the end of FY '27. We expect the
shift in our product portfolio towards more niche molecules and the change in our go-to-market
strategies to lead to considerable increase in the realizations, which should drive not only the
growth but also improvement in the profitability of the emerging market business.
The emerging market business will continue to be more profitable and will continue to grow
with changing product mixes. Having said that, we do not anticipate any material change in our
revenue mix on a steady-state annualised basis. We will continue to have about 70% revenue
coming from regulated market and about 30% revenue coming from emerging market.
There might be some fluctuation on quarter-to-quarter depending upon the product mix and
product launches. Our margin would slightly be up or down depending upon, again, the
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
regulated market, emerging market product mix, our revenue mix, as well as the launches and
so on and so forth. We continue to maintain our margin in the range of 24% to 26% sustainable
on annual basis, which we have been doing so far.
In terms of segment-wise performance, Q4 FY '25, our income from regulated market grew 17%
to INR64 crores, and our income from emerging markets stood at about INR37 crores. Coming
to our full-year performance, income stood at INR410 crores, reflecting a massive growth of
91% over FY '24. This growth has been driven by both regulated as well as emerging market
business.
Our regulated market income grew at about 69%, came to about INR245 crores. Income from
emerging market stood at about INR121 crores, reflecting a 1704% growth over FY '24. Our
consolidated EBITDA for FY '25 showed massive growth of 145% and came in at about INR102
crores as we speak.
EBITDA margin stood at about 25% for FY '25, reflecting an improvement of about 540 basis
points, over FY '24. We continue to maintain strong EBITDA margin in regulated market
business. We have also delivered on our strategy of improving the profitability in the emerging
market business with EBITDA margin at about 7% current year, which is likely to improve
significantly in the next year.
Consolidated profit after tax and minority interest for the year stood at about INR59 crores, a
massive growth of 86% over FY '24. To summarize, we have witnessed a healthy performance
across segments in quarter as well as the full-year basis. We are confident of continuing to
deliver sustainable profitable growth going forward.
With this, I open the floor for questions and answers. Thank you.
Moderator:
We have the first question on the line of Naitik Mohata from Sequent Investments. Please go
ahead.
Naitik Mohata:
Good afternoon, sir, and thank you for the opportunity. So, my first question is regarding
financials results which are posted. So, the P&L which is posted and the P&L which is
mentioned in our PPT, so the revenue, other operating income and other income, the
classification among these three differ. So, could you just give more clarity on that?
Sanajy Majmudar :
You mean to say what is the difference between other operating income and other income?
Naitik Mohata:
Yes, what is other operating income about and what's other income about?
Deval Shah :
The figures which have been uploaded are as per Ind AS and what is in the presentation is, other
operating income mainly includes the product-related service income and shared service
exports. So, we have given that breakup in the presentation.
Sanjay Majmudar So, I'll just elaborate. The product-related service income is pure operating income like dossiers,
R&D, consultancy, etcetera, that we recover. Miscellaneous other operating income is typically
shared services that we charge, then some writebacks which are routine in nature and some
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
recovery incentives, for example, some export incentives, etcetera all clubbed.
They are all pure operating income but classified as such as per the Ind AS and then we have a
net gain or loss on the foreign currency fluctuations which are realized. So, this is the realized
gain and loss which has also been shown as other operating income. Other income is a pure
interest income which is sort of a treasured income. So, we have segregated that surplus funds
that we have kept invested.
Naitik Mohata:
Sure, sir. Understood. So, second could you share the split between our ANDA business and the
CDMO business in the regulated market as well as the margins for both the segments?
Sanjay Majmudar:
See, we generally, as a matter of practice and also for maintaining certain business
confidentiality, we don't give segregated margins between the regulated ANDA income as well
as CDMO. So, in Q4 the total income of regulated markets as Swapnil said was INR55 crores
and INR244 crores was the regulated market income in entire FY25.
Naitik Mohata:
Sure, sir. Sir, is it fair to assume that the margins for both the segments would be around 38%
to 40%?
Sanjay Majmudar:
No, they would be upwards of 40%.
Naitik Mohata:
Okay. All right. Also, sir, another question is like we are going for an aggressive?
Sanjay Majmudar:
This is the total regulated market EBITDA margin consolidated upward or 40%.
Naitik Mohata:
Yes sir. Understood. Also, sir, we are guiding for an aggressive ramp up in FY26 in both of our
business, in regulated market as well as emerging markets. So, sir would we see this ramp up
coming up from Q1 itself or will it be skewed somewhere, somewhat more towards H2?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes. So, we feel there is a ramp up going to happen from Q1 itself, but it will be sizable on the
second half of this year because of certain product launches, certain approvals that are expected,
certain niche products that are going to be approved in the month of September-October
timeframe.
Naitik Mohata:
Okay. That's very helpful. Lastly, sir, I have a question regarding Remus Pharma. I believe it is
another listed entity which of the promoter group that deals in marketing of API and formulation.
So it seems that that business is quite complementary to our emerging market business. So just
wanted to get a sense regarding what is the rationale of having two separate entities here?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes. There are two perspectives of it. One company is purely on a B2B business and other
companies are purely on a B2C side of the business. One is completely manufactured products
in-house, one is doing most of 95%, 97% which are outsourced, So very distinctively different
business. If you drill down in terms of the fabric of how each business is structured and largely
for Senores it's oral solids and injectables.
Whereas another company has multiple dosage forms multiple therapeutic areas, multiple
different things. So very different business if you really deep down see each fabric of the
business.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Sanjay Majmudar:
So, Remus is actually a pure distribution company and it also acts as one of our many distributors
in certain markets. So that way absolutely there is a little bit of complimentary part, but there is
absolutely no conflict. And I think our sales to Remus as a distributor would not be more than
3%.
Naitik Mohata:
Okay. All right, sir. That's really helpful. Thank you, sir and all the best, for the year ahead.
Moderator:
Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Gaurav Agrawal from Nine One Capital.
Please go ahead.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Hi, sir. So you gave clarity on other income. Can you also help us what kind of run rate on the
reported basis, the filing that you report on BSE? On that, what kind of trajectory in the other
income you can see for next year?
Sanjay Majmudar:
In terms of your visibility, see more or less I would say that if the total other income this year
was about INR22 crores.
Gaurav Agrawal:
I think sir it is INR19 crores for full year?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Sorry INR19 crores it should be in the range of INR15 crores to INR20 crores that range will
be there. Around 15 crores is a more sustainable number.
Gaurav Agrawal:
So the 15 which you are referring to, this is the service income and operating, other operating
part or it includes the interest income also?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Yes. So all product related service incomes and other operating incomes and we are excluding
the FX gain.
Gaurav Agrawal:
You should do that. That is the right way to do it. So you are saying excluding forex gains and
excluding the interest income, INR15 crores. And how much was it in FY25, like August 19,
how much was it for this year versus this 15 crores, like-to-like basis?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Well, 15 crores is, roughly 15 crores, 16 crores. That is exactly what I say.
Gaurav Agrawal:
More or less it will be same which were in last year?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Yes.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Sir in terms of your P&L, your employee expenses have seen decline on a Y-o-Y basis, it was
INR18 crores last year in Q4. It is only 14 and a half this time. And sequentially also there is a
decline. So what explains this decline in employee benefit expenses?
Deval Shah:
So I think during last year we had some extra shifts going on, which added to our employee cost
last year and plus there was additional contractual labors which we did this year that reduced
our own employees. But now it will again back to original levels because we already employed
new people this year for the expansion done. So more or less, we'll be reaching what we were
at in 2024.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Sanjay Majmudar So on an annual basis of 60 crores and there will be a proper regular increase only year over
year.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Okay. And for other expenses, is there any R&D component in other expenses in this quarter?
And if you can help us, what was the quantum?
Deval Shah:
Yes, there are INR3.5 crores of R&D expenses for the emerging market.
Gaurav Agrawal:
For regulated 3.5 total R&D expenses or it pertains only to the emerging markets?
Sanjay Majmudar:
3.5 is the R&D component of the current quarter, which is the total R&D cost that is debited to
P&L this quarter.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Okay. And what was it, sir, in the previous quarter in Q3?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Q3, we'll have to come back to you. We'll take it offline. We'll just come back to you. No
worries.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Okay. Sir, any guidance for next year if you can quantify your guidance?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes. So, on our top-line, we've already, during the last call, we've already given quite
considerable growth trajectory, at least 50% plus top-line growth from what we see today. That's
one way we are targeting. On a PAT level, we are targeting at least 100% growth from where
we are today for the next year on full year basis.
And I think whatever that is there today in terms of all the CDMO or CMO orders, and our own
product launches, and so on and so forth, I think it seems pretty comfortable for us to target that
kind of number for the current year.
Gaurav Agrawal:
The PAT guidance of 100% that you're giving, that is after minority interest, right?
Deval Shah:
Yes, around 100%.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Perfect. Sir, just a last question, if I may. Any part of the current quarter revenue, which got
shifted to, let's say, in Q1 of this year? Because in last quarter, I think the guidance which you
gave, right? So, we have hit our guidance, we have met what we guided for, but it came on a
lower end of our guidance, right? I think we gave a range of around 410 to 440. And we did 410
if I include the other operating income. So, is there anything, any setback, or any order which
got delayed or got shifted to Q1 this year?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes. So, about INR15 crores of revenue that we anticipated in Q4 quarter, that could not be
realized. Two reasons for that. One of the packaging line had to start in month of March, that
kind of pushed to April, because we had some track and trace compatible issue for that particular
packaging line. So, though we had tablet, capsules manufactured and packed in a drum, we
couldn't pack it in a bottle and ship it to our customer because of track and trace issue, IP issue
that we had encountered in the month of March, which is rectified and done.
The second component was, we had a product launch with one of our prime customers that kind
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
of got delayed by another 15-20 days, which is scheduled to launch anytime now as we speak.
So, those were the two factors kind of shifted, that about INR15 crores worth of revenue from
previous quarter to current quarter, which if you add both on the revenue side, as well as
profitability side, considering those PAT and EBITDA margins.
Sanjay Majmudar :
It match this with our guidance. And this is for the regulated market.
Gaurav Agrawal:
Right. Great, sir. Thank you so much and all the best for the future quarters.
Moderator:
We have the next question on the line of Ajinkya Jadhav from KRIIS Portfolio PMS. Please go
ahead.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
You have this Atlanta facility and the regulated market and for that, do you have any inputs that
you do for the production in that premises or in that factory, one? And the second question is,
I'm asking you because if you're importing anything that could get affected by the tariff, one.
And the second thing is about the new drug policy which has been talked about, will that put
pressure on you to hike the prices or pass through the cost or the reduction in your generic
products?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes, so currently, as we all know, pharmaceutical is exempted from any tariff that we speak.
Secondly, currently, for most of our products, we have adequate API supplies, API inventory
that's available with us. So any tariff would probably be seen. We don't see any impact for next
six to nine months because we adequately have inventory on APIs that we produce.
What kind of tariff is going to come in what segment, whether it is API formulation, some APIs
are exempted, some not, nobody knows. So as everybody equally watching it, we are also
closely monitoring it, right? So as you move forward, things will get clearer. But from our
standpoint, we have only one product coming out of China. And for that particular product, we
have about two years of supply already with us on the API side.
So even if that is something drastically comes on that side, we don't foresee any large change in
terms of our cost of manufacturing on the American API. Also, we have a lot of API, let's say
for controlled substance, most of APIs are locally produced. So that we don't foresee a major
change from that side. And anything from Europe and India will continue to watch how things
work. So that's one part of it.
Now coming to the second point, in all the speeches, you will hear two terms, two words from
Mr. President. One is equalization and the second is most preferred nation. Now, when we talk
about equalization, now equalization is you can only equalize when the product, product
packaging, product franchise is equivalent to it is sold in other markets. Most of the products
that are sold in the US and other markets, they do not have the same packaging. Europe is all
blister packaging, most of it is blister packaging. US is all bottle packaging, right?
So how that equalization will derive in terms of product clarity, clarity, we like to see and get
more clarity in terms of how it needs to be done. Also, the stability in Europe is sometimes
different, the stability that we do in the US is different. So there are multiple factors that will
come in equalization.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Now, the second term that we keep on hearing is most preferred nation. Now, if there is no
equalization, then the question of most preferred nation doesn't come into play. What I feel
personally, that this is largely driven towards innovator, where the innovator packaging and
everything is same across the globe, whether it is in Europe, US or any other part of the world,
where equalization can kick in because it's got same exact specification, both on the packaging
side, product side and multiple other factors that we speak.
So we'll continue to wait and watch what happens. But best of my understanding is concerned,
I think we should be fine.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
So, can I ask one more question? This capex for your injectable that you're planning in US, that
capex has commenced or when will you start your production there, I mean tentatively?
Swapnil Shah:
Currently, as we speak, the capex will be planned sometime end of this year. We are increasing
our oral solids capacities. As I mentioned in my opening remark, we already got two installed
lines. We are getting third line installed as we speak and fourth line is being planned. So the
reason why there is a oral solids expansion on capacity is because of the kind of traction we
have seen because of multiple factors, right,
There is a large basket of portfolios that we have acquired for which we also need to increase
our capacities. A lot of traction on the CDMO or CMO of which we continue to hear across the
board our focus, again, we don't want to kind of slow down on our oral solids expansion.
Whatever business traction that we are seeing, we want to capitalize most on it and try to gain
most as we speak. So post this expansion oral solid, we'll continue to do on the injectable side
of the business.
Sanjay Majmudar:
And just to add to what Swapnil said, on the India side, we are very aggressively looking at the
new site, new greenfield site, which we want to start very soon in parallel, which would be
actually in a medium to long term, again, aimed at semi-reg as well as some support to the
regulated markets from India. So, but currently it is the semi-reg focus where we will be starting,
hopefully very soon, as soon as we are able to finalize the land.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
Oh, I see. Okay. So this domestic business, which is there now, which has been, you have done
the merger. So when you actually look at the margin takeoff for the domestic business, because
it's hardly anything. So of course, we are working on various strategies, finding distributors and
choosing and doing the product mix. But when do you think margins will come, which will look
decent, maybe in at least a high single digit? Can you throw some light on that?
Swapnil Shah:
So when we acquired in 2021 and the company had a PAT negative, it was cash flow negative,
EBITDA negative. From those days, the kind of percentages that was bleeding on the large side,
we've already become EBITDA positive. Last year, we had a lower single digit EBITDA.
This year, we have a higher single digit EBITDA, which the trajectory on EBITDA will continue
to increase to double digit, mid-double digit as we move forward in the next few quarters. So if
you see, overall, the EBITDA margin is expanding, will become cash flow positive as well on
emerging market side. That is one aspect of the business.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
The second aspect of the business, as you can see, number of registrations, when we acquired
this, and where we are today, it is almost more than doubled as we speak. In next year, one more
year, it is going to double from what it is today. So with the new registration product approval
that is coming in from multiple different markets, you will see product mix changing, product
mix changing will change per unit cost of the production that we are doing.
Again, remember this, we are not doing any capex or capacity expansion on emerging markets.
What we are trying to do today is changing the product mix. We are trying to increase our per
unit realization of the capex that we have already done. So we start with one point, currently we
are about INR1.3, INR1.4 per unit. We want to become and will become at about INR1.8 to
INR2 in the next few quarters.
Again, I am saying, we are not increasing any capex. What we are doing today is just changing
the product mix and increasing our realization. That will automatically derive into our EBITDA
margin growth and then eventually our PAT growth on emerging market business.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
Fantastic. So this ANDA that you acquired from Dr. Reddy’s, have you started working on that?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes, yes, we have already started working on it. We expect commercial launches of the acquired
portfolio from Q3 onwards in a phased manner
Ajinkya Jadhav:
Okay, yes, it will all be in a phased manner. And your own drugs that you do under your own
brand, how are they performing actually?
Swapnil Shah:
So our own products, you mean our own ANDAs, right?
Ajinkya Jadhav:
Yeah.
Swapnil Shah:
So it is continuing to grow, right? As more and more products get approved, we launch more
products. We have seen consistent growth on our own products as well. Even our existing
commercial products also, we have seen some of the products having a larger market share than
what it was in the last couple of quarters.
Sanjay Majmudar:
But just to clarify, we haven't yet launched our own brands as such in the regulated manner.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
I thought you sell it to the pharma company, right?
Sanjay Majmudar:
None of the, yes, which are sold by the large distribution or pharma companies in their respective
brands. So our revenue model is licensing, COGS plus margin, and then profit share.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
So that, I think this thing will continue, I mean, rather than doing your own brand that will cost
a lot.
Sanjay Majmudar:
No, we have a different strategy. We will talk about it as we reach there.
Ajinkya Jadhav:
Okay, fantastic. Thank you, all the best.
Moderator:
Thank you. We have the next question on the line of Deep Gandhi from ithought PMS. Please
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
go ahead.
Deep Gandhi:
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, I had one question on two of your products, which are
Tofacitinib and Tamsulosin. So can you talk about these products, what kind of revenue you get
from these two products in FY25? What kind of market opportunity is there for these two
products? If you can talk about that.
Deval Shah:
So which was the second product?
Deep Gandhi:
Tofacitinib and Tamsulosin
Swapnil Shah:
No, they are both focused on the ROW market. We have filed it in multiple markets as we speak,
both on IR and ER formulation as well as oral suspension. But particularly, as a product,
Tofacitinib will continue to grow and expand because it's going to be aa blockbuster in the US
and will become a blockbuster in the rest of the world market as well. It's largely used for
rheumatoid arthritis as we speak. So yeah, it will continue to expand. I think that we we don't
intend to give product wise guidance.
.
And Tamsulosin is a very old age product. It's a prostate product. So I don't know what exactly
you are looking to understand.
Deep Gandhi:
Sir, I was just asking if you can share what kind of revenue we get from these two products in
FY25 and what is the market price for this products? I'm not asking for a guidance.
Swapnil Shah:
Well, they're all, Tamsulosin is a pretty old, well-established product. And it's a good product
is all I can say right now.
Deep Gandhi:
Any number you would like to share in terms of market size?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Yes, for the emerging markets, our current strategy is try to do as many unique products or first
to file kind of products as possible. So I would say almost 25% of the new product registrations
that we have done would be respectively either very, very unique in the sense that they would
be either first to file or maybe one or two filings in those categories. That's the strategy.
Now, you know, it is very difficult. We have a very huge, significantly large product portfolio
for the emerging markets and there to track. And again, one particular product may have
multiple trends, would have different combinations. So, it's for the emerging markets, it is more
on the geographies, which distributor, how much market share we want to bear. So it's a very
detailed exercise we do. But broadly speaking, we do expect a lot of growth.
I think in this year, the margins must move almost close to double digit or rather a little lower
of the double digit. And then ultimately our target is the next two years, they should move in
the range of 15% to 16% EBITDA. This is the target for EM.
Moderator:
Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Viraj Shah from Wealth Alpha Advisors,
please go ahead.
Viraj Shah:
Yes, good evening. Congratulations on the good top line growth. Sir, I have just two questions.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Sir, one in the CDMO segment, which are the therapy areas which we are working currently
right now on?
Swapnil Shah:
So on the control substance side, largely that we are working on the CNS, within CNS, we have
ADHD and pain management and on the other side, we have pain management. So on the
control, CNS and pain management are the sectors that we are operating in. On the government
side and unique products. So on the ANDA also, we have a pain management product that are
working on with the CDMO, CMO.
On the government side, it is all therapeutic agnostic, So wherever there's an opportunity for us
to bid for certain business, we develop it through our partner or through ourselves and bid for
the government business.so that largely on a therapeutic agnostic on our side.
Viraj Shah:
Okay. Sir, also, if you could just let me know average contract time frame for the customers in
terms of years or something, if you could mention that. Can you come again?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Average what? Average contract time frame with the customers for CDMO?
Viraj Shah:
Yes, yes.
Swapnil Shah:
It varies from two months to four months, depending upon the contract period. For government,
it's five years. For non-government, it could be as high as 10 years, 12 years, depending upon
what kind of product, where it is going, how it is structured, so on so forth. If it's ANDA, it's
probably going to be lifelong. As long as the product is there. So it depends. I mean, it depends
on the area of distribution and the product that we are working on.
Sanjay Majmudar:
Again, most of our marketing for our own products are also minimum three to five years, or five
to seven years, rather. Just to add.
Viraj Shah:
Sir, also, if you could let me know on the competitive landscape of CDMO segment. So just
wanted to know around how is the customer stickiness for us?
Swapnil Shah:
So competitive landscape is only one today for us is, we provide them end-to-end solutions with
our R&D, both in the US as well as in India, with our manufacturing in the US, with the
regulatory 100% in-house, complete project management support. Within the project
management, we talk about R&D project management as well as supply chain, post-production,
complete regulatory filing of dossiers with FDA, post-filing all the query responses, all the query
responses, any additional work that needs to be done.
So we literally handled our customer right from the product idea to launch of a product, So that's
our USP. And being multi-geographically present, this really gives us an edge compared to all
other competitors that exist in the marketplace. Plus, not everybody is able to do C2, C3, C4,
C5 on the control substance. A lot of people do not have that kind of infrastructure with their
manufacturing plant. So a lot of those factors attribute to our uniqueness, unique proposition,
that partner would look at it before awarding our services.
Sanjay Majmudar:
So just to add, there are currently, to my mind, not more than four or five players in the US who
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
are actually providing or having that capacity and capability to provide these end-to-end
solutions. And then quite a few large plants have been closed by some of the companies whom
we all know. So I think we have a fantastic order book and visibility on the CDMO, CMO side,
and we continue to be very excited about it.
Viraj Shah:
Sir, also, if I could just squeeze in one, I just wanted to know on the new API facility, sir, what
is the capacity at the plant and how, once it scales up, how will we see third-party sales, how
much of captive consumption for the formulation business?
Swapnil Shah:
Yes, so the new facility is about 100 to 120 metric ton production capacity. We have already
started production, but it will be in a full scale probably in about a month's time, the new facility.
We expect in Q2 CY26 for US FDA trigger for our API facility. And post our FDA trigger, we
are going to start with one of our existing products to get the FDA trigger. And post our trigger,
a lot of those strategic products, we will do a backward integration and supply to our US business
from our plant. And multiple discussions are ongoing in terms of utilizing current capacities till
we get a US FDA trigger.
Viraj Shah:
Sir, thank you and all the best for the next year.
Moderator:
Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Varun M.from Skaniva Capital . Please
go ahead.
Varun M:
Good evening and thank you for the opportunity. So in the presentation, we have given a split
between our regulated market and emerging market business. So I just want to understand our
rough revenues split in terms of percentage between our formulation API and CDMO, if you
can.
Deval Shah:
The regulated market is around 60% plus, as we speak. Emerging market is 30%. And balance
is between the , Critical care and API.
Varun M:
Okay. I mean, all the regulated market would be formulations or even API goes to a form?
Sanjay Majmudar:
No, no, no API. Maybe formulations out of our US plant.
Varun M:
Sorry, can you come again?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Formulations only from our US plant.
Varun M:
Okay, okay. So our API mostly goes to the emerging market, is it?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Yes. And that too currently it is a very small business, just about INR20 odd crores. But going
forward, it will grow once the new facility is validated and we start producing.
Varun M:
And what about CDMO?
Sanjay Majmudar:
CDMO is 100%. Currently, again, we are talking about regulated, it forms part of the regulated
markets business.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Varun M:
Okay. And CDMO has formulations or APIs also for us?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Only formulations from US plant.
Varun M:
So in the presentation, we mentioned that we are setting up a Greenfield for emerging market
from 25 MTPA to 169 MTPA. So what part of our emerging business can be supported by this
facility? So once this facility comes alive, can we get to our aspirational target of 15% EBITDA
in our emerging market business?
Sanjay Majmudar:
I think you are mixing up two things. I think you're talking of API facility, correct? Metric turn
capacity is API.
Varun M:
Yes.
Sanjay Majmudar:
And API, as our strategy is very clear, it's more for our own backward integration, bulk of it
will be used for our own APIs that we use, maybe a little bit we will sell in the market, but that's
not the driver. It's more on a backward integration, quality control and consistency, availability,
etc.
Swapnil Shah:
It's more a strategic positioning than the business vertical.
Varun M:
. So we have not yet planned regarding our specific plan for the emerging market, right? As of
now?
Sanjay Majmudar:
No, that API facility is already on ground, and it will be commencing production very soon. It
is actually already commenced in March.
Varun M:
Thank you.
Swapnil Shah:
Yes, so again, I'm saying API facility, we are planning for FDA trigger by Q2 2026. All efforts
are ongoing currently to get FDA trigger by that timeframe. Currently, till we get FDA trigger
for the utilization of facility, we are already working on multiple ways how we can utilize that
particular 100 metric ton of capacity on API side.
A lot of efforts are ongoing on that particular side of the business,. And as we said, facilities
already commenced, a lot of validations are going on. So commercial activity will start from
next month, commercial execution, billing activity. But again, I'm saying this is strategic
positioning. We don't look at it as a vertical of business as we speak.
Varun M:
Thank you. And what is the capex for FY 26?
Sanjay Majmudar:
We have that in the presentation, 250 crores.
Varun M:
Thank you.
Moderator:
Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Mitesh Mehta from Long term
investment group, please go ahead.
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Mitesh Mehta:
Good evening. Yes thanks for taking my question. I have two questions. One is related to Group
Company. So as I understand, there is one group company, which is in similar line of business.
And is there any further plan to merge the business? Or how do you plan to cope up with the
overlap of businesses, especially?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Swapnil has clarified and we are very clear. One, it's a completely different and clearly different
strategic business. Remus, you're talking about the group company, it is into distribution, it has
multiple distribution products and channels. We are only in OSB and manufacturing as Senores
100% pure manufacturing.
And they have absolutely no presence in regulated market.. So they also they must also access
one of our distributors, which may be 2%-3% of our sales going through them. And therefore,
at this point in time, we have not thought about anything. It's a completely non conflicting
separate line of business. And for the timing, it will continue as it is.
Mitesh Mehta:
Okay. And my second question is regarding, like our company has a very high number of
receivables days and even payable days compared to other US focused formulation companies.
So is there any specific reason and do you have a specific plan to reduce that? So by what extent?
Deval Shah:
No, if you see our presentation, I think compared to 2024, we have already reduced the number
of days. From 69 days in FY'24, we are at 43 days of inventory in this year. Trade receivables
have also reduced to half from 228 days to 108 days. And payables have also reduced. So we
are already in the process of reducing, but we feel that still there is some improvement to be
done, but it will be gradual.
Sanjay Majmudar:
I will also clarify FY '24 is actually not strictly comparable, because that was the year where
different businesses got consolidated for different periods. And then the year end position
showed a very skewed position. So generally, based on our model, about 100 to 190 to 100 days
of receivables in US is quite okay because there are two elements.
One is our COGS that we build as a supply and second is the profit share. And that profit share
always takes time. It doesn't happen quickly. And then inventory we have to carry. Payable also
will come down significantly because of the fact that after the IPO proceeds, a lot of funds will
go into working capital and everything will be streamlined. But net-net my working capital cycle
will further improve going forward. That is what our plan is.
Mitesh Mehta:
Okay. And one more question is, considering long-term implication of US dollar softening, like
now there is a more chance that US dollar will soften compared to Indian rupees as well as all
emerging market currencies. So do you have a specific long-term plan for same?
Sanjay Majmudar:
No, sir. See, there are two aspects. One, if I'm exporting from here into US, I'm more worried
about this. I am a US company, manufacturing in US, buying in US, selling in US. So to that
extent, it doesn't matter. Secondly, we are too small a company globally to talk about the global
impact of dollars. But let's see. We are also waiting. It will be guided by experts like you who
can advise us what is to be done.
Mitesh Mehta:
Okay. Thank you. That's it from my side.
Page 15 of 17
Moderator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraints, we will take the last question from
line of Smith from RGI. Please go ahead.
Smith:
So what was the full year revenue for Ratnatris Pharmaceuticals on standalone basis?
Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
Deval Shah:
INR121 crores.
Smith:
And what was the Y-o-Y growth?
Deval Shah:
Y-o-Y growth I think last year was not fully consolidated. But on full year basis, it was INR107
crores, which didn't get consolidated in our books. So we added it in December.
Sanjay Majmudar:
But, it's not apple-to-apple comparison because there's a lot of change in the products. So we
have discontinued quite a few products, introduced quite a few new, more profitable products.
But still on a pure arithmetic, it is INR107 crores versus INR121 crores?
Smith:
Got it. And my second question is on up to ANDAs. So it has increased from 24 to 61 compared
to last quarter. But our number of products under our pipeline is more or less similar. So is it
because of the acquisition only?
Sanjay Majmudar:
, so one is acquisition and secondly, it always takes time to commercialize a product after, once
the ANDA is approved. But as we spoke in the initial remarks, what Swapnil said, almost 31
new products are expected to be launched in the current fiscal.
Deval Shah:
That includes the 16 products that we have acquired. 16 ANDAs.
Smith:
So the reason behind this improvement is just in this acquisition?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Partly, yes. But partly, even if you knock it off, there is still growth.
Smith:
And what is your guidance for next year EBITDA margins?
Sanjay Majmudar:
I think Swapnil gave a target that we expect the PAT margins to significantly grow and PAT in
absolute terms to double as compared to this year. So there would be a margin improvement.
But it is a bit early for you or for us to give exact what growth in PAT. In absolute terms, it will
be double. Margins will be improved. But to what extent? Let us see. There will be 100%
improvement. But volume growth in PAT will be almost 100% as compared to this year.
Smith:
Is it 25% EBITDA margin is sustainable? Can we assume that?
Sanjay Majmudar:
It will only improve. 100% sustainable.
Smith:
Yes. And what about the business segments?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Sorry? Other than regulated and emerging, you are asking?
Smith:
Yes, correct.
Sanjay Majmudar
So one, we have a critical care business, which is hospital supplies of injections. Critical care
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Senores Pharmaceuticals Limited May 16, 2025
injections to hospital supplies. And then there is a little bit of API sales. These two are the main
components of the third vertical.
Smith:
Is it for regulated market or emerging market?
Sanjay Majumdar:
No, no. 100% India.
Smith:
Okay. Is it sustainable?
Sanjay Majmudar:
Of course, it will further grow.
Swapnil Shah:
Largely, Smith here is a branded generic. We are approved in more than 100 plus, 120 plus
countries across India. And in fact, month-over-month, we are seeing about 100% growth. On
the branded generics in India. So, as Sanjay bhai said, this will continue to grow as we move
forward.
In post current quarter, you can give a little more guidance in terms of how we see that particular
vertical to grow in this particular year. We have strong guidance, but let's see how it goes post
this quarter.
Smith:
Understood. Thank you. That's it for my side.
Moderator:
Thank you. That was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to Swapnil
Shah for closing remarks.
Swapnil Shah:
Thank you. I would like to once again thank everyone for joining the call. We will keep updating
our investor community on a regular basis for the developments at Senores. I hope we have been
able to answer all your queries through our answers that we have given to the questions that
were asked. Once again, thank you everyone and have a great weekend.
Moderator:
Thank you. On behalf of Ambit Capital, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining
us, and you may now disconnect your lines.
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